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	<title>Comments for International YWAMer</title>
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	<link>http://internationalywamer.org</link>
	<description>The Electronic Magazine for Youth With A Mission</description>
	<lastBuildDate>Wed, 25 Aug 2010 03:06:12 +0000</lastBuildDate>
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		<title>Comment on Free Running, Films and Faith by Ana Lucía</title>
		<link>http://internationalywamer.org/2010/08/free-running-films-and-faith/comment-page-1/#comment-168</link>
		<dc:creator>Ana Lucía</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 25 Aug 2010 03:06:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://internationalywamer.org/?p=423#comment-168</guid>
		<description>Breanna, thanks for sharing this. Your writing creates such a beautiful atmosphere and this true story of friendship is encouraging. Im mexican and want to be a film maker, I know how to write scripts, but had just stopped writing that kind of things because of my many other activities. But by reading this I get reminded of how God moves trhough so many things, such as films (because He used that for you to get to know this people better) and the spark I needed to fire up again all this desire of starting seriously writing again, God gave it to me trhough this. Plus the story this guys made was a great idea, I´ll look up for the video. Hughs.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Breanna, thanks for sharing this. Your writing creates such a beautiful atmosphere and this true story of friendship is encouraging. Im mexican and want to be a film maker, I know how to write scripts, but had just stopped writing that kind of things because of my many other activities. But by reading this I get reminded of how God moves trhough so many things, such as films (because He used that for you to get to know this people better) and the spark I needed to fire up again all this desire of starting seriously writing again, God gave it to me trhough this. Plus the story this guys made was a great idea, I´ll look up for the video. Hughs.</p>
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		<title>Comment on Free Running, Films and Faith by Chris Whitler</title>
		<link>http://internationalywamer.org/2010/08/free-running-films-and-faith/comment-page-1/#comment-167</link>
		<dc:creator>Chris Whitler</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 19 Aug 2010 21:18:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://internationalywamer.org/?p=423#comment-167</guid>
		<description>Great story!  Good issue, thanks y&#039;all.  I immediately emailed this one to my boy who wants to be a film maker AND a free runner : )</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Great story!  Good issue, thanks y&#8217;all.  I immediately emailed this one to my boy who wants to be a film maker AND a free runner : )</p>
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		<title>Comment on A Lesson in Listening to God by Rachelle Muller</title>
		<link>http://internationalywamer.org/2010/08/a-lesson-in-listening-to-god/comment-page-1/#comment-166</link>
		<dc:creator>Rachelle Muller</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 16 Aug 2010 01:49:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://internationalywamer.org/?p=417#comment-166</guid>
		<description>Such a brief story yet full of God&#039;s Beauty, keep praying and pray that God&#039;s will be done in your life and the lives of others around you and all over the world. This story truly brought tears to my eyes, Spain you were all the way in Spain, but God loves in every inch of the world.
God is good.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Such a brief story yet full of God&#8217;s Beauty, keep praying and pray that God&#8217;s will be done in your life and the lives of others around you and all over the world. This story truly brought tears to my eyes, Spain you were all the way in Spain, but God loves in every inch of the world.<br />
God is good.</p>
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		<title>Comment on A Lesson in Listening to God by Valerie Clark</title>
		<link>http://internationalywamer.org/2010/08/a-lesson-in-listening-to-god/comment-page-1/#comment-165</link>
		<dc:creator>Valerie Clark</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 13 Aug 2010 15:47:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://internationalywamer.org/?p=417#comment-165</guid>
		<description>Great Lara.  I hadn&#039;t heard that story before.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Great Lara.  I hadn&#8217;t heard that story before.</p>
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		<title>Comment on A Lesson in Listening to God by nadine</title>
		<link>http://internationalywamer.org/2010/08/a-lesson-in-listening-to-god/comment-page-1/#comment-164</link>
		<dc:creator>nadine</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 13 Aug 2010 09:24:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://internationalywamer.org/?p=417#comment-164</guid>
		<description>That  was a great experience Miss Palmer.
God bless you</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>That  was a great experience Miss Palmer.<br />
God bless you</p>
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		<title>Comment on A Lesson in Listening to God by nadine</title>
		<link>http://internationalywamer.org/2010/08/a-lesson-in-listening-to-god/comment-page-1/#comment-163</link>
		<dc:creator>nadine</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 13 Aug 2010 09:22:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://internationalywamer.org/?p=417#comment-163</guid>
		<description>That  a great experiance Miss God bless you</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>That  a great experiance Miss God bless you</p>
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		<title>Comment on Taking the Veil Off of Our Eyes by Mark Burnard</title>
		<link>http://internationalywamer.org/2010/06/taking-the-veil-off-of-our-eyes/comment-page-1/#comment-161</link>
		<dc:creator>Mark Burnard</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 30 Jun 2010 10:43:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://internationalywamer.org/?p=382#comment-161</guid>
		<description>Hi Stefen,

Thanks for your reply, it&#039;s much clearer now where you are coming from and the concerns you have expressed are entirely reasonable. I agree that there is a clear question here, which is, is the God of the Koran the same God as the God of the Bible. The strange answer is, yes and no. In some ways yes, in some ways no. If you take all the attributes of God (to make it simple we can use &quot;names&quot;) that are described in the Koran, and compare these to the names or attributes of God in the Bible, there is a very high correspondence. Plenty of research has been done on this. At the same time, there are plenty of attributes of God in the Koran that are totally unbiblical, and plenty of &quot;noise&quot; and distortion as well.

Now, let&#039;s lay the right starting point by saying that none of us has a perfect knowledge of God, or of Jesus, nor a perfect understanding of salvation (and let&#039;s not forget that the early church did not end up agreeing on the divinity of Christ for many decades, and on the trinity for nearly 400 years). So all of us, true Christians, are worshiping our concept of who God is, which is distorted to one degree or another. However, our loving Father accepts this worship if it is in Spirit and in truth - not in perfect truth, but enough truth to hit the &quot;target&quot; so to speak. I don&#039;t know how else to put it. God accepts our worship, and we are saved, even though our understanding of who he is is less than perfect.

So the question becomes, how accurate does your theology need to be in order to get saved. Here is where the contention usually begins. On the one hand, you&#039;ve got your typical American Evangelicals and cult watchers who, with the best of motives, define things very narrowly in seeking to defend sound doctrine. But sound doctrine is important for growth, but not necessary for salvation. All that&#039;s necessary for salvation is faith in the finished work of Jesus for the forgiveness of sins. And indeed, our understanding of who Jesus is can also be less than perfect - Abraham was saved by faith by just knowing that somehow God could attribute righteousness to him not on the basis of works. In other words, God&#039;s requirements for the BASIC KNOWLEDGE of truth that you need to be saved, appears to be very broad. There are many examples from Scripture to illustrate this, both OT and NT.

So the question then becomes, can people from a Muslim background discover enough truth about God from the Koran and from natural revelation and reason (and often dreams as well) to lead them to a salvation experience and an ongoing walk with the Father though Jesus. I think the answer is yes they can (and many experiences and testimonies bear this out), but if they don&#039;t then move on from just the Koran, they will never grow as Christians.

Interestingly, when Muslim converts testify that they saw Jesus in a dream, it usually includes the fact that He calls Himself Isa, and doesn&#039;t feel the need to say &quot;I&#039;m not the Isa of the Koran, I&#039;m the Isa of the Bible&quot; - both Jesus and the Muslims seem comfortable that it&#039;s one and the same person - albeit that any such convert usually ends up seeking a new testament and reading it to learn more about the Isa that appeared to them, and thus does their journey of discipleship start.

I&#039;m often reminded of Muslims when I read of the Jews (and Pharisees in particular) in the New Testament as they face a similar dilemma. They are in a religion that has an understanding of God, but it&#039;s a religion of works and there is no salvation in it. Unless they repent of dead works and trust in Jesus/Isa/Yeshua, they can&#039;t be saved. The problem is the ones who are more committed to the religion than they are to the truth - just like the Jews of Jesus&#039; day, they end up opposing the work of God while thinking they are doing him a service.

I have rambled a bit here but I trust that what I&#039;m saying makes sense. A good book on the subject of extra-Biblical cultural revelation being a foundation for the Gospel is Don Richardson&#039;s &quot;Eternity in their Hearts&quot;. There are probably some good books that talk specifically about Islam, but I don&#039;t have any and I&#039;m not an expert on Islam, I&#039;m just approaching the issue applying the same principles that apply generally in missiology.

Sorry if I have bored anyone!!

Blessings,

Mark</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hi Stefen,</p>
<p>Thanks for your reply, it&#8217;s much clearer now where you are coming from and the concerns you have expressed are entirely reasonable. I agree that there is a clear question here, which is, is the God of the Koran the same God as the God of the Bible. The strange answer is, yes and no. In some ways yes, in some ways no. If you take all the attributes of God (to make it simple we can use &#8220;names&#8221;) that are described in the Koran, and compare these to the names or attributes of God in the Bible, there is a very high correspondence. Plenty of research has been done on this. At the same time, there are plenty of attributes of God in the Koran that are totally unbiblical, and plenty of &#8220;noise&#8221; and distortion as well.</p>
<p>Now, let&#8217;s lay the right starting point by saying that none of us has a perfect knowledge of God, or of Jesus, nor a perfect understanding of salvation (and let&#8217;s not forget that the early church did not end up agreeing on the divinity of Christ for many decades, and on the trinity for nearly 400 years). So all of us, true Christians, are worshiping our concept of who God is, which is distorted to one degree or another. However, our loving Father accepts this worship if it is in Spirit and in truth &#8211; not in perfect truth, but enough truth to hit the &#8220;target&#8221; so to speak. I don&#8217;t know how else to put it. God accepts our worship, and we are saved, even though our understanding of who he is is less than perfect.</p>
<p>So the question becomes, how accurate does your theology need to be in order to get saved. Here is where the contention usually begins. On the one hand, you&#8217;ve got your typical American Evangelicals and cult watchers who, with the best of motives, define things very narrowly in seeking to defend sound doctrine. But sound doctrine is important for growth, but not necessary for salvation. All that&#8217;s necessary for salvation is faith in the finished work of Jesus for the forgiveness of sins. And indeed, our understanding of who Jesus is can also be less than perfect &#8211; Abraham was saved by faith by just knowing that somehow God could attribute righteousness to him not on the basis of works. In other words, God&#8217;s requirements for the BASIC KNOWLEDGE of truth that you need to be saved, appears to be very broad. There are many examples from Scripture to illustrate this, both OT and NT.</p>
<p>So the question then becomes, can people from a Muslim background discover enough truth about God from the Koran and from natural revelation and reason (and often dreams as well) to lead them to a salvation experience and an ongoing walk with the Father though Jesus. I think the answer is yes they can (and many experiences and testimonies bear this out), but if they don&#8217;t then move on from just the Koran, they will never grow as Christians.</p>
<p>Interestingly, when Muslim converts testify that they saw Jesus in a dream, it usually includes the fact that He calls Himself Isa, and doesn&#8217;t feel the need to say &#8220;I&#8217;m not the Isa of the Koran, I&#8217;m the Isa of the Bible&#8221; &#8211; both Jesus and the Muslims seem comfortable that it&#8217;s one and the same person &#8211; albeit that any such convert usually ends up seeking a new testament and reading it to learn more about the Isa that appeared to them, and thus does their journey of discipleship start.</p>
<p>I&#8217;m often reminded of Muslims when I read of the Jews (and Pharisees in particular) in the New Testament as they face a similar dilemma. They are in a religion that has an understanding of God, but it&#8217;s a religion of works and there is no salvation in it. Unless they repent of dead works and trust in Jesus/Isa/Yeshua, they can&#8217;t be saved. The problem is the ones who are more committed to the religion than they are to the truth &#8211; just like the Jews of Jesus&#8217; day, they end up opposing the work of God while thinking they are doing him a service.</p>
<p>I have rambled a bit here but I trust that what I&#8217;m saying makes sense. A good book on the subject of extra-Biblical cultural revelation being a foundation for the Gospel is Don Richardson&#8217;s &#8220;Eternity in their Hearts&#8221;. There are probably some good books that talk specifically about Islam, but I don&#8217;t have any and I&#8217;m not an expert on Islam, I&#8217;m just approaching the issue applying the same principles that apply generally in missiology.</p>
<p>Sorry if I have bored anyone!!</p>
<p>Blessings,</p>
<p>Mark</p>
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		<title>Comment on Taking the Veil Off of Our Eyes by concerned</title>
		<link>http://internationalywamer.org/2010/06/taking-the-veil-off-of-our-eyes/comment-page-1/#comment-160</link>
		<dc:creator>concerned</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 29 Jun 2010 15:04:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://internationalywamer.org/?p=382#comment-160</guid>
		<description>After reading Marks reply. I thought about a better way to voice my concern. What you mentioned are true, and stuff we learned in our 1st week of DTS.
I don&#039;t really care what you wear when you worship, what you call the one you worship, what you eat and drink when you worship, or if you do it in a church, a boat or a box. My concern is who you worship. George Bush and George Clooney are 2 completely different people, with the same name. 
Allah of the Koran, and Allah of the Bible are not one in the same. (Allah just a word for God) If you want to call God Fluffy, thats fine just worship the right God. 
Isa of the Koran is not the same Isa of the bible. Allah of the Bible has Isa (his son), and the Holy Spirit all 100% God in their own right - But one!, Allah of the Koran does not. Be careful of words and names. Anyone can call anything God, the attributes of the God of the Bible do not match the attributes of the God of the Koran.
There you go, now I&#039;m done.
Stefen</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>After reading Marks reply. I thought about a better way to voice my concern. What you mentioned are true, and stuff we learned in our 1st week of DTS.<br />
I don&#8217;t really care what you wear when you worship, what you call the one you worship, what you eat and drink when you worship, or if you do it in a church, a boat or a box. My concern is who you worship. George Bush and George Clooney are 2 completely different people, with the same name.<br />
Allah of the Koran, and Allah of the Bible are not one in the same. (Allah just a word for God) If you want to call God Fluffy, thats fine just worship the right God.<br />
Isa of the Koran is not the same Isa of the bible. Allah of the Bible has Isa (his son), and the Holy Spirit all 100% God in their own right &#8211; But one!, Allah of the Koran does not. Be careful of words and names. Anyone can call anything God, the attributes of the God of the Bible do not match the attributes of the God of the Koran.<br />
There you go, now I&#8217;m done.<br />
Stefen</p>
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		<title>Comment on Taking the Veil Off of Our Eyes by Mark Burnard</title>
		<link>http://internationalywamer.org/2010/06/taking-the-veil-off-of-our-eyes/comment-page-1/#comment-159</link>
		<dc:creator>Mark Burnard</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 29 Jun 2010 09:28:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://internationalywamer.org/?p=382#comment-159</guid>
		<description>I&#039;m reminded of something that Ralph Winter, founder of the US Centre for World Mission (Pasadena) and a globally respected missionary statesman said a few years ago. He predicted that in the coming decades there would be moves of God in Hindu, Muslim and Buddhist nations that would result in large numbers of conversions, (ie genuine salvations). These movements would appear to the western church to be syncretistic, because these large numbers of new Christians would see no need to abandon existing cultural forms that are not inherently contradictory to the Gospel. Indeed they would do church in culturally relevant ways that are very different from the way Westerners do church. The challenge and struggle for Churches in the West (and dare I say for American Evangelicals in particular) would be to not write these movements off as heretical and thus completely overlook (and possibly nullify/oppose) huge moves of people into the Kingdom of God. It is the same struggle that the Judaisers of the NT faced when seeing large numbers of Gentiles convert and yet not adopt the accepted forms of (Jewish) Christianity. It is the same struggle that many missionaries throughout history have encountered as God has moved among their target peoples and has not required them to abandon their cultural forms (Patrick among the Celts, Gregory among the English and Germans, Bruce Olsen with natives in Venezuela... need I go on).

Let&#039;s not make the mistake that some missionaries have in the past, and require something of these new followers of Jesus, that Jesus has not required of them.

As for whether you can use the term &quot;Allah&quot; to pray to the God of the Bible... every morning 100 million Arabic speaking Christians across the Middle East get up and have their quiet times, read the Bible (in Arabic) and pray to Allah the God and Father of Isa al Massih (Jesus the Christ) - as they have done for well over 1000 years. Are you gonna try and tell them they are wrong? If so, on what basis? Korean Christians pray to Hananim the God and Father of Yesu... Chinese Christians pray to Shang Ti... and when I pray I use &quot;God&quot;, &quot;Lord&quot; and a few other non-Hebrew, non-Greek terms that my father in heaven seems quite comfortable with... because my heart language happens to be English.

Perhaps more importantly, God is able and willing to use latent revelation of the truth in ANY culture in order to lay a platform for the establishment of a relationship with Him through Jesus. If you can&#039;t use the Koran for that, then Paul should not have quoted ancient Greek poetry (which had religious value in that culture) on Mars Hill in Acts 17 - but he did.

We need to heed the conclusions of Acts 15 - not to lay upon converts from other cultures a burden that the Gospel does not lay upon them - including the burden of transitioning to different (and culturally irrelevant) forms.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;m reminded of something that Ralph Winter, founder of the US Centre for World Mission (Pasadena) and a globally respected missionary statesman said a few years ago. He predicted that in the coming decades there would be moves of God in Hindu, Muslim and Buddhist nations that would result in large numbers of conversions, (ie genuine salvations). These movements would appear to the western church to be syncretistic, because these large numbers of new Christians would see no need to abandon existing cultural forms that are not inherently contradictory to the Gospel. Indeed they would do church in culturally relevant ways that are very different from the way Westerners do church. The challenge and struggle for Churches in the West (and dare I say for American Evangelicals in particular) would be to not write these movements off as heretical and thus completely overlook (and possibly nullify/oppose) huge moves of people into the Kingdom of God. It is the same struggle that the Judaisers of the NT faced when seeing large numbers of Gentiles convert and yet not adopt the accepted forms of (Jewish) Christianity. It is the same struggle that many missionaries throughout history have encountered as God has moved among their target peoples and has not required them to abandon their cultural forms (Patrick among the Celts, Gregory among the English and Germans, Bruce Olsen with natives in Venezuela&#8230; need I go on).</p>
<p>Let&#8217;s not make the mistake that some missionaries have in the past, and require something of these new followers of Jesus, that Jesus has not required of them.</p>
<p>As for whether you can use the term &#8220;Allah&#8221; to pray to the God of the Bible&#8230; every morning 100 million Arabic speaking Christians across the Middle East get up and have their quiet times, read the Bible (in Arabic) and pray to Allah the God and Father of Isa al Massih (Jesus the Christ) &#8211; as they have done for well over 1000 years. Are you gonna try and tell them they are wrong? If so, on what basis? Korean Christians pray to Hananim the God and Father of Yesu&#8230; Chinese Christians pray to Shang Ti&#8230; and when I pray I use &#8220;God&#8221;, &#8220;Lord&#8221; and a few other non-Hebrew, non-Greek terms that my father in heaven seems quite comfortable with&#8230; because my heart language happens to be English.</p>
<p>Perhaps more importantly, God is able and willing to use latent revelation of the truth in ANY culture in order to lay a platform for the establishment of a relationship with Him through Jesus. If you can&#8217;t use the Koran for that, then Paul should not have quoted ancient Greek poetry (which had religious value in that culture) on Mars Hill in Acts 17 &#8211; but he did.</p>
<p>We need to heed the conclusions of Acts 15 &#8211; not to lay upon converts from other cultures a burden that the Gospel does not lay upon them &#8211; including the burden of transitioning to different (and culturally irrelevant) forms.</p>
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		<title>Comment on Taking the Veil Off of Our Eyes by Concerned</title>
		<link>http://internationalywamer.org/2010/06/taking-the-veil-off-of-our-eyes/comment-page-1/#comment-158</link>
		<dc:creator>Concerned</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 29 Jun 2010 00:36:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://internationalywamer.org/?p=382#comment-158</guid>
		<description>I am sorry that you (Brian) do not see. There are things that are &quot;christian&quot; - talk, words and traditions, but also truth. This is the way we grow, organized religion saved my life, and it is needed to be used as a beacon to draw others to Christ (it is not necessary, but a vessel (I see you reject the word &quot;tool&quot;)
I love you, and I pray for you also. Please read the comment in the next article to see where I came from.
Stefen - Perhaps not the best with words, but I&#039;m great with numbers!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I am sorry that you (Brian) do not see. There are things that are &#8220;christian&#8221; &#8211; talk, words and traditions, but also truth. This is the way we grow, organized religion saved my life, and it is needed to be used as a beacon to draw others to Christ (it is not necessary, but a vessel (I see you reject the word &#8220;tool&#8221;)<br />
I love you, and I pray for you also. Please read the comment in the next article to see where I came from.<br />
Stefen &#8211; Perhaps not the best with words, but I&#8217;m great with numbers!</p>
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